Secret Gamer Girl / SecretGamerGrrl / Googleshng / "Violet Hargrave" / Jacob Lawrence (Jake) Alley / Violet Cassandra Ocean - Delusional Zoe Quinn Stalker, Libelous Tweeter, Thirsty Gnome, Faux-Tranny Neckbeard Incel, Micropenis, "Known Troubled Person", Creator of "Massive vs the Masses", Self-Described "Noise Making Thing"; Lives in New London, CT

How will Disembodicon end?

  • Jake forgets about it in a week

    Votes: 56 8.0%
  • Jake spergs about it for weeks, but it's 'too much effort' to do and he cancels it

    Votes: 104 14.9%
  • Someone else does the same thing but competent, Jake rages for years

    Votes: 60 8.6%
  • Jake cancels it due to paranoia

    Votes: 27 3.9%
  • Jake holds it, no one shows up

    Votes: 24 3.4%
  • Jake holds it, only 5 gross troons show up, spend entire time getting googleshng'd at

    Votes: 64 9.1%
  • Jake holds it, bans everyone for being 'secret nazi agents'

    Votes: 31 4.4%
  • Jake uses it as a scam for the next few weeks, then cancels it

    Votes: 63 9.0%
  • Jake holds it and it becomes a great success and makes Chelasy love him (lol)

    Votes: 22 3.1%
  • Jake dies of Coronavirus

    Votes: 249 35.6%

  • Total voters
    700

Water-T

STARVING TO DEATH...FOR ATTENTION (AND CAKE)
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
He really shouldn’t have cheaped out on the box art.
THAT. The box art is so crap looking that it would dissuade many would-be buyers from trying it.

There are so many table top games out there vying for attention on shelves, that a great looking box is needed to stand out among them all. That shitty piss yellow box ain't it, buddy.
 

Tragi-Chan

A thousand years old
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
THAT. The box art is so crap looking that it would dissuade many would-be buyers from trying it.

There are so many table top games out there vying for attention on shelves, that a great looking box is needed to stand out among them all. That shitty piss yellow box ain't it, buddy.
When the premise of your game is “army versus kaiju,” it takes a special form of incompetence to fuck the box art up that badly. Seriously. Giant monster. Army. Put that on your box, the game practically sells itself. Maybe make it look like a 50s B-movie poster. This is not difficult.
 

Smaug's Smokey Hole

Sweeney did nothing wrong.
kiwifarms.net
THAT. The box art is so crap looking that it would dissuade many would-be buyers from trying it.

There are so many table top games out there vying for attention on shelves, that a great looking box is needed to stand out among them all. That shitty piss yellow box ain't it, buddy.
I think he complained on TalkingTime that he didn't have anyone to do all the art so he had to do it himself, just like how he had to playtest the game by himself. His avatar there seems to come from one the card illustrations he made.

Wasn't there something about him rarely playing the game to completion so any semblance of balance completely dissolves after a while?
 

Surfin Terf

kiwifarms.net
Ugh, I wouldn't. Witnessing his derangements in person would be fascinating, but being stuck in a game with him for any proper length of time would just be shit. We know exactly what it would be like, we know exactly what it would sound like thanks to his streams, and we even know that he'd be much more passive-aggressive in person.

What would be interesting is getting the chance to be in a gaming situation with Jake where everyone turns on him at the table, in the game, rather than what likely happens usually which is that people just suddenly ghost on him, the games falling apart for, to Jake, no fault of his own. Actually getting a chance to call him on his bullshit in real time would be interesting, but is entirely unlikely. More possible, and possibly equally painful, is if the group found an in-game reason to kill off his character, proving that he hasn't carefully picked and chosen every obscure way to make himself the best there is at what he does.

Basically, I'd like to see Jake ragequit in real time, in part for the fun of contrasting how he behaves in person vs. how he later describes it. My belief is he's passive as fuck in person, but would try to rules-lawyer his way out of all the negative consequences, and that might be worth a couple of hours dealing with that lump of whizzard-based lack of creativity at the table.
Maybe I'm just a catty bitch, but at this point I think I get more long-term enjoyment from the defective people in my gaming groups (and the occasionally retardery, intentional or not, from the functional people) than from the good games.
 

AnOminous

each malted milk ball might be their last
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
I think he complained on TalkingTime that he didn't have anyone to do all the art so he had to do it himself, just like how he had to playtest the game by himself.
That's because he's such an unpleasant asshole that he'd drive off any playtesters. Just listening to his whiny pathetic voice would turn anyone off.

Also the whole genre of multiple units against one unit was basically defined by OGRE from Steve Jackson Games. Despite the fact he basically stole this concept, he whined when other people did it better than he did, without being needy whiny crying assholes.

And the SJG game wasn't even really successful because of presentation. Iirc it was originally presented in one of those shitty SJG formats with cardboard chits you pulled apart. But you didn't care because once you actually got into the play it was fun.

But both Jake's shitty design and shitty presentation was a guarantee of failure, and if you actually showed up and had to listen to this fat, whiny fuck present his shitty product that looked like shit, you'd definitely avoid it. It's no wonder this piece of shit didn't sell.

I'm sure it was actually a Nazi conspiracy that it was not a smash hit, though.
 

talk talk talk

Helping the exceptional to know God
kiwifarms.net
And the SJG game wasn't even really successful because of presentation. Iirc it was originally presented in one of those shitty SJG formats with cardboard chits you pulled apart. But you didn't care because once you actually got into the play it was fun.
OGRE was originally published by MetaGaming and was absurdly cheap--$2.95 IIRC.

I have a nostalgic love for the old MetaGaming MicroGames, and Steve Jackson's original Melee/Wizard rules published by MetaGaming are still some of the best for a plain ol' hack 'n' slash dungeon crawl. No stupid alignment philosophical bullshit or bodice-ripping transformation spells. Just roll the dice and inflict damage on orcs and shit.
 

Jet Fuel Johnny

Full Metal Sperg
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Ogre was the fucking bomb though. They marketed that shit in a little plastic box the size of a fucking paperback book. You could shove that shit in your pocket and go off. The game took like a minute or two to set up and you could play that shit pretty quick. Car Wars was the same.

I used to tuck those two in my ruck along with a couple pack of cards so we had something to play when were deployed or in the field because we didn't have cellphones and computers and shit.

You ever wanna see something funny, watch two officers play Ogre and see who loses their temper first.

I fucking loved Ogre and Car Wars. Just fast stupid fun in a little plastic box.
 

inconel

kiwifarms.net

In my never-ending quest to find decent unknown games, I came across a geeklist:


It had Flash Point on it, so I've been slowly mining it for ideas. (I see an old Ariel game called Seastrike on a related list, that may become my next listing. As it turns out, I think I have one. )

This was one of the ones that lured me into purchasing based on the strength of Karnaxis, and the promise of a decent Kaiju game that wasn't a battle royale scenario. I was always a fan of Crush, Crumble, Stomp and The Creature that Ate Sheboygan. I don't believe there have really been any good, iconic big-monster-attacks-city since.

Thus enters a challenger: The Massive vs. the Masses. Which is part of a "system" that also somehow also allows you to mix and match with Zombie vs Ash, or a Vickie drilling machine vs the Molemen. None of these promised sequels have appeared, as the guy has probably sold like 3 of the original "Gamorzilla vs the Army" set.



Price $40 + shipping

Bits:

Box with professionally applied label but primitive art.

two lasercut hex boards from masonite with laminated graphics on the top.

One pewter Gamera mini.

60 or so Rubble counters from masonite.

two decks of cards.

60-70 plastic standees with labels.

No dice.....



Rules:

The rules and bits are structured to mix and match sides. There are 4 pages of basic rules. Each side has his own board and card deck, as well as a single page of custom rules for that side. Each deck also has 5 Weak Point cards which go into the opponent's deck.

A turn is simple, play a card. Move all pieces, attack with all pieces. Pieces have a movement type restricting the terrain they can cross, a range and a fixed damage. Buildings block LOS. Pieces cannot move through other pieces. That's most of the rules. Nothing interesting.

The special rules are where the magic happens.

Gamorzilla plays cards to attack. Each card does something crazy. From a base attack, to an area effect, to throwing a figure, to doing the crazy jet turtle blast flight attack. And 100HP.

The Army starts with 10 civilians, and loses a point of hand size for each one that dies. He also has a single scientist, which allows him to play the weak cards. His hand tends to spawn military units, protect unmoving units, and creating the Giant Robot and Death Ray. And dropping a nuke and electrifying the railroad tracks. The cards he can play from Gamorzilla's Weak Spot deck tend to restrict Gamorzilla's movement.

End Result:

It is a short game, lasting perhaps 30 minutes and driven heavily by when cards come up. The diceless nature means that games go really fast, and the rules are simple enough that you can kind of breeze through it.

There aren't going to be a huge number of surprises. A full game is going to just about run through the deck. The replayability is driven by how the cards interact. Gamorzilla can take control of the Death Ray. The Nuke does collateral damage, and has to be played a turn before it takes effect. This means the Army has to kind of set up a plan to make the Nuke useful.

The game ends up being a succession of little plans, counter cards, bits of drama, and it is all great. It is a light, fluffy game. Longevity is the worry. It is a 2player game without massive depth, but also without the variability of something like Heroscape.

So you may have some reservations. Me--I want you to buy it so I can pit Gamorzilla versus the Mole Men. And support an indy designer who done good.

I don't think this has been posted in this thread, if it has it was years ago. This guy got his hands on the game and did a really short vanilla review. What really stood out to me was the $40 price tag along with the laser cut laminated masonite board. That tells me that Jake, being Jake, did not bother to consult with anyone who had any experience independently releasing a board game or even just sold and manufactured product. His margin must have been damn near zero just considering the board alone. No wonder he ended up having to do the box art himself. Like you guys said above, a fun game can overcome a lame board or package, but nobody is going to pay $40 for a rehashed idea from a noname. Well almost nobody, I don't care what anyone says, a copy of Massive vs. Masses is like my Sonichu Medallion, I would totally give Jake my money if he sold some copies. I'm a huge fan, I've been following his larp for years.

EDIT: Added text of review to post
 

Tragi-Chan

A thousand years old
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net

In my never-ending quest to find decent unknown games, I came across a geeklist:


It had Flash Point on it, so I've been slowly mining it for ideas. (I see an old Ariel game called Seastrike on a related list, that may become my next listing. As it turns out, I think I have one. )

This was one of the ones that lured me into purchasing based on the strength of Karnaxis, and the promise of a decent Kaiju game that wasn't a battle royale scenario. I was always a fan of Crush, Crumble, Stomp and The Creature that Ate Sheboygan. I don't believe there have really been any good, iconic big-monster-attacks-city since.

Thus enters a challenger: The Massive vs. the Masses. Which is part of a "system" that also somehow also allows you to mix and match with Zombie vs Ash, or a Vickie drilling machine vs the Molemen. None of these promised sequels have appeared, as the guy has probably sold like 3 of the original "Gamorzilla vs the Army" set.



Price $40 + shipping

Bits:

Box with professionally applied label but primitive art.

two lasercut hex boards from masonite with laminated graphics on the top.

One pewter Gamera mini.

60 or so Rubble counters from masonite.

two decks of cards.

60-70 plastic standees with labels.

No dice.....



Rules:

The rules and bits are structured to mix and match sides. There are 4 pages of basic rules. Each side has his own board and card deck, as well as a single page of custom rules for that side. Each deck also has 5 Weak Point cards which go into the opponent's deck.

A turn is simple, play a card. Move all pieces, attack with all pieces. Pieces have a movement type restricting the terrain they can cross, a range and a fixed damage. Buildings block LOS. Pieces cannot move through other pieces. That's most of the rules. Nothing interesting.

The special rules are where the magic happens.

Gamorzilla plays cards to attack. Each card does something crazy. From a base attack, to an area effect, to throwing a figure, to doing the crazy jet turtle blast flight attack. And 100HP.

The Army starts with 10 civilians, and loses a point of hand size for each one that dies. He also has a single scientist, which allows him to play the weak cards. His hand tends to spawn military units, protect unmoving units, and creating the Giant Robot and Death Ray. And dropping a nuke and electrifying the railroad tracks. The cards he can play from Gamorzilla's Weak Spot deck tend to restrict Gamorzilla's movement.

End Result:

It is a short game, lasting perhaps 30 minutes and driven heavily by when cards come up. The diceless nature means that games go really fast, and the rules are simple enough that you can kind of breeze through it.

There aren't going to be a huge number of surprises. A full game is going to just about run through the deck. The replayability is driven by how the cards interact. Gamorzilla can take control of the Death Ray. The Nuke does collateral damage, and has to be played a turn before it takes effect. This means the Army has to kind of set up a plan to make the Nuke useful.

The game ends up being a succession of little plans, counter cards, bits of drama, and it is all great. It is a light, fluffy game. Longevity is the worry. It is a 2player game without massive depth, but also without the variability of something like Heroscape.

So you may have some reservations. Me--I want you to buy it so I can pit Gamorzilla versus the Mole Men. And support an indy designer who done good.

I don't think this has been posted in this thread, if it has it was years ago. This guy got his hands on the game and did a really short vanilla review. What really stood out to me was the $40 price tag along with the laser cut laminated masonite board. That tells me that Jake, being Jake, did not bother to consult with anyone who had any experience independently releasing a board game or even just sold and manufactured product. His margin must have been damn near zero just considering the board alone. No wonder he ended up having to do the box art himself. Like you guys said above, a fun game can overcome a lame board or package, but nobody is going to pay $40 for a rehashed idea from a noname. Well almost nobody, I don't care what anyone says, a copy of Massive vs. Masses is like my Sonichu Medallion, I would totally give Jake my money if he sold some copies. I'm a huge fan, I've been following his larp for years.

EDIT: Added text of review to post
What’s sad is that this isn’t the only okay review of Jake’s game. By which I mean, it wasn’t a total critical flop. There was definitely something a determined creator could work with here. With decent marketing and judicious quoting of positive reviews (and redone box art), it could have sold. Maybe even attracted an investor or two. Then he could have worked on an improved version based on feedback.

I always think the key to success in any creative field isn’t talent so much as the willingness to go the distance and put the work in. Jake put some work in, didn’t instantly become the darling of the tabletop gaming world and basically gave up.
 

BScCollateral

kiwifarms.net
Also the whole genre of multiple units against one unit was basically defined by OGRE from Steve Jackson Games. Despite the fact he basically stole this concept, he whined when other people did it better than he did, without being needy whiny crying assholes.

Massive vs. the Masses isn't even the only giant monster game out there.

That sort of extreme asymmetry in design is probably the hardest thing to pull off. Even the first edition of Ogre didn't actually do it right; the defensive player could buy all all GEV force and win every time. This was fixed in the second edition, by making all armor units the same cost.
 

Smaug's Smokey Hole

Sweeney did nothing wrong.
kiwifarms.net
What’s sad is that this isn’t the only okay review of Jake’s game. By which I mean, it wasn’t a total critical flop. There was definitely something a determined creator could work with here. With decent marketing and judicious quoting of positive reviews (and redone box art), it could have sold. Maybe even attracted an investor or two. Then he could have worked on an improved version based on feedback.

I always think the key to success in any creative field isn’t talent so much as the willingness to go the distance and put the work in. Jake put some work in, didn’t instantly become the darling of the tabletop gaming world and basically gave up.
What's even sadder is that over the years he seems to have become worse. His Missile Command is apparently a big "meh". He got a classic license to work with, a real publisher to handle art and everything else plus a paycheck for his troubles and that's all he could come up with. There are reviews on Youtube.

It wouldn't surprise me if he's the type of guy that would sandbag a lowly project like that by keeping any good ideas to himself for use in his own game or at least a more prestigious product.
 

AirdropShitposts

That's a side effect of the marijuana poisoning!
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Look at the Redshirts game Jake claims was stolen from him, it's a "good idea" to the point that not only has a board/card game been made and done well, but two separate video games have taken the idea and run with it too. Jake may indeed have had it "first" but he did literally nothing with it. He blamed this on other people obviously but we know how likely that is to the story.

I've read about successful creative people having this problem, especially when they have lots of projects in different states of thing. It's not uncommon to have more than one project and start confusing them and then start holding back ideas to prevent this. To keep to the Trek theme in this post, the writers for Star Trek TNG and the first movie for TNG were writing the movie and episodes at the same time and started getting them confused or copying ideas across them all so instituted a variety of rules to prevent this from happening.

Jake's problem is a combination of this, his laziness and his incompetence. I very much believe that Jake has a bunch of "irons in the fire" so to speak. They're just all ideas with no way for him to implement them or turn them into anything further. He plays with Unreal Engine, with RPG Maker, with his own little rewrites like this Swashbuckler, with Disembodicon, with streaming, etc. None of it leads anywhere because he literally has no ability to carry out any of the ideas nor does he have any interest in learning how to acquire any ability. Even his troon larp is this way because he refuses to just lose some weight. His Twitter break has led nowhere because he hasn't applied it to any of his projects, except seemingly this rewrite of the Swashbuckler, nor to improving his actual life.

As others have pinpointed Jake is the worst type of ideas guy, because it'd be one thing if he had good ideas that other people wanted to implement, it's another when Jake's ideas are mostly things that only he wants and nobody else would ever want. Add to this that he doesn't have the skills to be a producer or overseer of anyone not even himself. Disembodicon was an idea he was in the "first" wave to during the pandemic, but he had no way to pull it off or even an idea beyond starting to stream on Twitch and once he got the name (from others!) he literally did nothing else with it.

I also agree that Jake has clearly gotten worse. At one time he actually did play games to review them and engaged with his "fans" and a community. He actually did go into massive debt to make a shitty board game. He "hustled" to get pity work from friends. Now he just expects book tours handed to him for daring to be a fat trans person on the internet. He's right in one way about his CON experience having ruined his life such as it was, he just can't properly identify why it did and why it's all been seemingly downhill for him since while nobody else involved has suffered these same repercussions.

All that said, he makes more money than ever off his shitty persona so he doesn't even have any financial incentive to change his behavior. He exists purely to wait for his precious genital mangle procedure at this point. When that does nothing to address his self-imposed problems he won't learn anything either.
 

AnOminous

each malted milk ball might be their last
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
That sort of extreme asymmetry in design is probably the hardest thing to pull off. Even the first edition of Ogre didn't actually do it right; the defensive player could buy all all GEV force and win every time. This was fixed in the second edition, by making all armor units the same cost.
That's a good point. It's incredibly difficult to balance a game like this and requires lots of playtesting, because players will invent strategies you couldn't possibly foresee. And then when you balance it, they'll wreck it again. One side or the other is inevitably going to be dominant when the prevailing meta works their way.

Jake, being an autistic, obnoxious asshole, would never be able to retain enough playtesters to make something like this work.
 

kaien

kiwifarms.net
That's a good point. It's incredibly difficult to balance a game like this and requires lots of playtesting, because players will invent strategies you couldn't possibly foresee.
It's why nobody in 20-plus years of trying has really done StarCraft as successfully as StarCraft, including the guys who made it in the first place.
 

Jet Fuel Johnny

Full Metal Sperg
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
That's a good point. It's incredibly difficult to balance a game like this and requires lots of playtesting, because players will invent strategies you couldn't possibly foresee. And then when you balance it, they'll wreck it again. One side or the other is inevitably going to be dominant when the prevailing meta works their way.

Jake, being an autistic, obnoxious asshole, would never be able to retain enough playtesters to make something like this work.
When I was designing games and TTRPG stuff, I had a simple mantra that I would remind everyone.

"If you build it, the players will run you over with it."

You can't perfectly balance everything and expect the players not to come up with some hilariously broken strategy that is technically within the rules but makes you go "WTF!" at top volume.

To help with that, you have power gamers and munchkins and min/maxers in your playtest groups. Have new GM's and vet crazy players. Experienced GMs and new players, and the whole mix. You watch how easy it is for new players and new GM's to work with your stuff to see where it needs streamlined or better explanation. Sometimes you end up with hilarious shit coming out. One product the playtester came up with something so goddamn amazingly broken in the final playtests that I actually included it in the product as a cult of psychos who took that exact feat chain, abilities, PrC, and weapons, so they could be the most devastating things ever to walk the Earth.

Jake's idea of playtesting is dumb as fuck and looks like he just wants ass-pats for making something new. Playtesting is stress testing, not "see if this is playable no matter how unbalanced it is" like he was doing.

In a game like Masses VS Massive it's even worse. You need to have at least a dozen playtesters and tell them to just plain break the fucking game. Try to develop unbeatable strategies, killer builds, whatever, so you can see where it needs fixed. You need newbie players to see how long it takes them to play the game, how often they have to refer to the rules, and if they played it actually by the rules or what confusing rules made them think the rules were.

I'm pretty sure that for the most part his contributions have been flavor text and the odd feat and spell here and there.

"Wailing Attic Gnome Racial Archetype."
 

AnOminous

each malted milk ball might be their last
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
To help with that, you have power gamers and munchkins and min/maxers in your playtest groups. Have new GM's and vet crazy players. Experienced GMs and new players, and the whole mix. You watch how easy it is for new players and new GM's to work with your stuff to see where it needs streamlined or better explanation. Sometimes you end up with hilarious shit coming out. One product the playtester came up with something so goddamn amazingly broken in the final playtests that I actually included it in the product as a cult of psychos who took that exact feat chain, abilities, PrC, and weapons, so they could be the most devastating things ever to walk the Earth.
Even actually really good games are subject to this. Also put me in the min/max fag class because I routinely do that to turn games I like into pure rape factories where I just automatically win every time. There are few games where you can't come up with some meta where RNG is utterly meaningless because your build neutralizes it entirely.
 

BScCollateral

kiwifarms.net
Then there's Greg Costikyan's Creature That Ate Sheboygan. Like Steve Jackson, one of the best game designers in the US; tried a one-unit vs. army game and didn't quite pull it off. Radioactive monsters with high Defense are effectively indestructible. Sadly, that game did not become a classic fixed in the next iteration.

Also, I'd argue that game balance isn't the win/lose state. Awful Green Things from Outer Space is incredibly dependent on RNG, with the right chit drawn can make the game unwinnable or a blowout. So much fun nobody cares.
 

AirdropShitposts

That's a side effect of the marijuana poisoning!
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Jake's feeling rambunctious today: https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/1390773161512382469 (https://archive.ph/9KTDd)
1620425134131.png
 

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